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As a person who claims they are a martial arts expert chris I thought you would of had the self restraint to stop yourself from fighting only in self defence, the dissapointing thing is you werent involved in just one altercation it was two!
It prroves how poor your training/self restraint is and also your ability to make a cock of yourself reacting like that if youve had all that training
"Kyle":11i3yco8 wrote:"vpatrol":11i3yco8 wrote:ex. rookie takes run at star player, rookie serves 2 minutes, enforcer finds rookie next shift, rookie is leaking blood from numerous orifices, rookie no longer takes liberty with star player)
[/quote:11i3yco8]You can do better than that Vince. Violence in hockey is a cultural component of the sport. There’s nothing inherent in ice hockey which requires violence. You’re using the same argument that was used in rugby 20 years ago when it started to stamp the violence out of the game. Rugby is now a lot less violent than it was when I was young.
Violence appears in hockey for a number of reasons. In the NHL it’s somewhat condoned as a marketing tool, which works well there (violence in hockey doesn’t work well as a marketing tool here). It’s accepted by a decent number of players, coaches, administrators, and officials as being ‘part of the game’. That’s a cultural element that is carried on by the myth of ‘a fight sorting out something’.
The idea that Chris or Mike or whoever else did whatever last night resolving anything clearly isn’t true. The people they were opposed to will play the same next time they step on the ice at this level as they did last night (whether that’s dirty or not). If Hockey_Goon is correct and Rhys stepped up to protect a member of his team, do we think he won’t do that again? No of course he will, Rhys believes in that part of hockey culture.
In rugby league you see lots of violence at one level (State of Origin), much less at another level (NRL, test matches). Again, it’s cultural, there’s an expectation and hype of violence around State of Origin that isn’t around other parts of rugby league.
Violence will lessen in hockey when all aspects of the sport – players, coaches, officials, and administrators decide to make it so. Once administrators across the whole sport make a decision to get rid of it, and direct officials and coaches to do so without exception, it will fade away until it’s relatively rare. Until then it’s a point of conflict as to whether it should be in the sport.
If you want to argue for fighting because you think people should be able to fight as part of hockey, go ahead. If you enjoy that, up to you. If you think it markets the sport, OK, there’s some places in the world where it does. But an argument about it being an essential part of the game for reasons of sorting out other players is deeply flawed.
[/quote:11i3yco8]Kyle how do you know Fighting wouldn’t work as a marketing tool?
Im sure if fighting was allowed Hockey in New Zealand would get a much greater fanbase. Lets face it every one loves fighting there are those who love to watch it for the thrill of it and others want to see it just so they can protest against it.
And from a players stand point they are all going to want fighting in the game stars players have protection from cheapshots and the enforcers take pride in there job to protect them.
Lets be honest the Oilers never would have won there 4 Stanley Cups if it wasn’t for McSorley protecting gretzky the whole time.1. I never claimed to be an expert. I’m not an expert – I don’t have a license to instruct.
2. Believe me Rhys, had I not shown self restraint you would have known about it. I am relieved that I did, in fact, stop myself from seriously injuring you, which I think you’ll agree was certainly an option for me had I so wished. All in all, I think you came out of it fairly lightly.
I think he stole that from me
"Active":2z8tn6xt wrote:"Chris":2z8tn6xt wrote:"Rhys M":2z8tn6xt wrote:Thirdly, I don’t give a shit how lippy 13 year olds get, but when someone punches me in the face (as he did), I’m not going to ask for ID before I retaliate.
[/quote:2z8tn6xt]
thats quite funny Chris even if its not really funny (depending on who you talk to)
[/quote:2z8tn6xt][/quote:2z8tn6xt]"Hockey_Goon":3uzgcd7z wrote:Kyle how do you know Fighting wouldn’t work as a marketing tool?
Im sure if fighting was allowed Hockey in New Zealand would get a much greater fanbase. Lets face it every one loves fighting there are those who love to watch it for the thrill of it and others want to see it just so they can protest against it.
And from a players stand point they are all going to want fighting in the game stars players have protection from cheapshots and the enforcers take pride in there job to protect them.
Lets be honest the Oilers never would have won there 4 Stanley Cups if it wasn’t for McSorley protecting gretzky the whole time.
[/quote:3uzgcd7z]Dave Semenko was his body guard during the 1984 Cup win. No McSorley until 1985.
” title=”Wink” />"Hockey_Goon":2sb9rk6h wrote:Kyle how do you know Fighting wouldn’t work as a marketing tool?
Im sure if fighting was allowed Hockey in New Zealand would get a much greater fanbase. Lets face it every one loves fighting there are those who love to watch it for the thrill of it and others want to see it just so they can protest against it.
And from a players stand point they are all going to want fighting in the game stars players have protection from cheapshots and the enforcers take pride in there job to protect them.
[/quote:2sb9rk6h]Because I spend a lot of time trying to encourage people to play hockey, and ‘isn’t it really violent, don’t they have lots of fighting?’ is the most common response. It’s the perception that causes the most problems with growing our sport.
If there was more fighting in the sport, I’m sure there would be a bunch of members of the public that would love it and turn up. You’d rule out getting on TV more however, and you’d turn away a whole heap of potential fans. It’s no coincidence that the squashing of fighting in rugby was done at the same time as the switch to professionalism, when rugby needed to attract a broader audience and pull in sponsors and get on TV more.
As for players, I can think of a bunch of them who don’t like fighting. And I can’t see those chats to parents of young potential players going well when it starts off with “hey, so is your kid any good in a fight?”
I’m sure Wayne would still have been a great player without an enforcer protecting him, the reason he had one is because of (again) hockey culture. Teams go after the opposition’s best player and try and take them out of the game by breaking the rules, so teams put someone else on the ice to cancel out the illegal play. None of this is necessary, Gretzky would still be a great player without fighting going on around him.
If you like the fighting that took place during that era, fine, up to you. But don’t pretend that it was necessary for the Oilers Stanley Cup reign and great hockey players.
Chris the way you talk gives the inference you are a expert, if you were that good you would have restrained yourself completey.
After this post, please continue all discussion of last night’s events and / or fighting in general in another thread. This thread is for the DIHL. Future posts which are not on topic will be split and moved to another thread.
Well sorry to tell you chris apart from pointing out the obvious last nights events were part of the DIHL so it would seem appropriate they are in this thread would it not
yea why would you change the conversation to another thread when its quite obvious that this fight was in the league that this topic is about, i thought you were smart chris, now you just look like a big goon that cant take being wrong
Hockeys hockey and theres always a time and place for a fight. All I have to say is if your going to fight do it properly. Drop the gloves, square up, loose the bucket and go at it. I hate when everyone thinks there tough giving someone a cuddle or a punch to the cage, save that for the changing room or the showers. Untill that bullshit it was a good close game with the score at 3-4 to the jets. Tempers flaired and that was that but then being young and stupid enough wasn’t enough for some of the FYC players and the focused shifted from hockey to fighting which ruinned the game. If you want to fight have e decent go at it and get back to the hockey.
[u:2f9i7uup]
Because I spend a lot of time trying to encourage people to play hockey, and ‘isn’t it really violent, don’t they have lots of fighting?’ is the most common response. It’s the perception that causes the most problems with growing our sport.[/u:2f9i7uup]
[b:2f9i7uup]
Be honest with the kids, Hockey is violent your never going to change that. Secondly enforcers understand there roles there job isn’t to bully other players theres an unspoken code in hockey.
If Hockey devolps in NZ fighting will become an absolute nessictiy to stop cheap shots, you can go on about that culture bullshit because when the games going down emotion takes over.[/b:2f9i7uup]
[u:2f9i7uup]As for players, I can think of a bunch of them who don’t like fighting. And I can’t see those chats to parents of young potential players going well when it starts off with “hey, so is your kid any good in a fight?”
[/u:2f9i7uup]
[b:2f9i7uup]I mean serious players. Not socail players because obvisouly fighting is not needed in low levels.[/b:2f9i7uup]
[u:2f9i7uup]
I’m sure Wayne would still have been a great player without an enforcer protecting him, the reason he had one is because of (again) hockey culture. Teams go after the opposition’s best player and try and take them out of the game by breaking the rules, so teams put someone else on the ice to cancel out the illegal play. None of this is necessary, Gretzky would still be a great player without fighting going on around him.If you like the fighting that took place during that era, fine, up to you. But don’t pretend that it was necessary for the Oilers Stanley Cup reign and great hockey players.[/u:2f9i7uup]
[b:2f9i7uup]NONE OF THIS IS NECESSARY I am telling you the Oilers would have never won the Cup all those years with out Dave Semenko (thanks Vpatrol) and Marty Mcsorley. Maybe Gretzky would have been ok for the first half of the season but come playoff time somone would take him out people arnt just going to play fair the desire to win takes over. Look at what happened to Kharlomov during the summit series. Officals can’t save everything.[/b:2f9i7uup]
"Hockey_Goon":ak6t1djp wrote:Be honest with the kids, Hockey is violent your never going to change that. Secondly enforcers understand there roles there job isn’t to bully other players theres an unspoken code in hockey.
If Hockey devolps in NZ fighting will become an absolute nessictiy to stop cheap shots, you can go on about that culture bullshit because when the games going down emotion takes over.
[/quote:ak6t1djp]Doesn’t matter how many times people say “you can’t change it”, there’s demonstrable evidence that you can change it. Lots of sports have changed or removed the role of fighting in their sport, hockey just hasn’t had the will to do it yet. The Flyers used to regularly head into the crowd for a brawl, doesn’t happen any more, not part of the hockey culture. The same thing could be done with fighting on the ice, if the sport committed to it. Once a few NHL players started missing games for fighting, and their clubs got fined, there’d be a lot less fights and they’d be a lot less willing to start them.
"Hockey_Goon":ak6t1djp wrote:I mean serious players. Not socail players because obvisouly fighting is not needed in low levels.
[/quote:ak6t1djp]This a couple of pages into a thread which is now dominated by discussion of fighting that took place in a social league, which people have justified using the same justification that is used at all levels of hockey.
"Hockey_Goon":ak6t1djp wrote:I am telling you the Oilers would have never won the Cup all those years with out Dave Semenko (thanks Vpatrol) and Marty Mcsorley. Maybe Gretzky would have been ok for the first half of the season but come playoff time somone would take him out people arnt just going to play fair the desire to win takes over. Look at what happened to Kharlomov during the summit series. Officals can’t save everything.
[/quote:ak6t1djp]Again, no other sport adopts this code of players taking matters into their own hands if they feel the referee isn’t doing the right job. The last guy that Ritchie McCaw thumped on the rugby field was that nutty South African spectator who attacked the referee. Yet in 1956 the All Blacks brought a prop into the test series specifically to ‘deal to’ the opposing south african props. He even switched sides of the scrum at half time because he’d cowed one guy sufficiently and he wanted to go to work on the other guy who was still causing problems.
Rugby decided to deal to this culture, and it’s now largely disappeared. There’s nothing about ice hockey that prevents this, the sport just lacks the will at present. It will get there.
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