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The refs in Dunedin are all on a learning curve and no doubt they would have gone home and looked up the rule book to see what they could/should have done and will be better for it. Any body who wants to fire off shots at refs need to to some reffing themselves then they can become experts and then maybe someone will take them seriously
slash a guy in the face, you get a warning if its accidental and probably some choice language. Slash a guy in the face as part of continued dirty play, prepare to fight. The best refs in the world can’t stop that happening nor should they. No idea what happened but if a “young guy” does something stupid, history supports the “old guy” preventing him from doing it again. That’s proper hockey.
"vpatrol":11xqs72d wrote:slash a guy in the face, you get a warning if its accidental and probably some choice language. Slash a guy in the face as part of continued dirty play, prepare to fight. The best refs in the world can’t stop that happening nor should they. No idea what happened but if a “young guy” does something stupid, history supports the “old guy” preventing him from doing it again. That’s proper hockey.
[/quote:11xqs72d]Actually, I think all the people sent off were relatively young, as in under 25.
I wasn’t at the game and haven’t seen the scoresheet, but I understand that there were more people sent off from the senior team than the junior team, so I don’t think it’s an old person teaching a young person a lesson thing. The most serious one was certainly someone from the Jets, not the FYC.
not really my point. I don’t know the specific circumstances of this incident however knowing some of the past infractions I was inferring something else. What I am trying to say is that you have a core group of players who are often seen as trouble makers. Until now they either don’t get penalized or maybe they do. However it doesn’t deter them from the dirty behavior on ice (again not referring to a specific incident). If I am constantly slashed (for example), at some point I would stop being content with the person being penalized and would retaliate physically. The ref could be doing a fantastic job of calling penalties but some people don’t care about serving two minutes. They like slashing and playing dirty. That person gets a beating for their troubles and the behavior miraculously becomes less frequent in many cases.
ex. rookie takes run at star player, rookie serves 2 minutes, enforcer finds rookie next shift, rookie is leaking blood from numerous orifices, rookie no longer takes liberty with star player)
"Active":2ge03i38 wrote:The refs in Dunedin are all on a learning curve and no doubt they would have gone home and looked up the rule book to see what they could/should have done and will be better for it. Any body who wants to fire off shots at refs need to to some reffing themselves then they can become experts and then maybe someone will take them seriously
[/quote:2ge03i38]I don’t think it’s appropriate to blame the refs for what occurred last night, though I can’t say I would have been disappointed had the large amount of dirty play been picked up earlier.
"vpatrol":2ge03i38 wrote:What I am trying to say is that you have a core group of players who are often seen as trouble makers.
[/quote:2ge03i38]I think that comment pretty much sums it up. I’m not absolving myself of blame at all, but certainly there are elements of the hockey community down here who go out of their way to cause trouble. Certainly when I relayed to other hockey players what happened and who was involved, there wasn’t a great deal of surprise.
"Kyle":2ge03i38 wrote:I wasn’t at the game and haven’t seen the scoresheet, but I understand that there were more people sent off from the senior team than the junior team, so I don’t think it’s an old person teaching a young person a lesson thing. The most serious one was certainly someone from the Jets, not the FYC.
[/quote:2ge03i38]Again, I have no issue with the refs from last night, either in general or for that game specifically, but in my opinion the penalty minutes on the scoresheet do not, in this case, paint an accurate picture of the way the game was being played.
I take full responsibility for my own conduct, but I certainly did not incite anything, or participate in any dirty play apart from those incidents for which I was penalised. As I was by far the worst offender on the Jets team, I can say with confidence that the Jets were not engaging in dirty play of any kind. The same cannot be said for the FYC.
I think when you have a situation where a guy like Mike Wesseling, who is probably one of the most calm and reasonable players I know, getting sent off for fighting then there is more to the situation than perhaps the scoresheet would suggest.
"Jofa playa":m2ftuqjg wrote:Im very dissapointed to find that chris laing one of our mighty forum administrators has been involved in such a gross act of unsportsmanlike conduct towards younger players in his own social league. I hope that if the younger players are to be banned that so extreme action is taken against the older players such as chris for instigating such behaviour
[/quote:m2ftuqjg]You’re not the only one disappointed with my behaviour last night. The only thing I would disagree with you on is the comment that I “instigated” anything. In the incident for which I was given a game misconduct, I think it was obvious to all that I had been pushed to my limits by the kind of play that was occurring. That is why rather than throwing punches, as is ‘traditional’ in hockey, I reacted even less appropriately. Fortunately for me, I was able to stop myself short of actually inflicting any damage, at which point I simply took my opponent to the ground in order to end the altercation. Such a reaction was provoked, quite obviously I would have thought, by relatively serious incidents, including one in which I took a deliberate high stick to the face which managed to cut my lips, tongue and mouthguard (which was not called, just fyi).
So, to cut a long story short, to claim that I was an instigator would be incorrect.
I would just like to say that I completely respect Mcalveys actions now. After hearing that another player from the Jets had a go at one of the younger members of the FYC earlier and Mcalvey stepped in latter on in the game to stick up for one of his team mates.
Although this does not excuse him from many of his other classes antics.The fight was a bit of an embarrassment. How about next time you drop the Gloves drop the bucket and swing away.
” title=”Wink” />"vpatrol":2rffrazw wrote:ex. rookie takes run at star player, rookie serves 2 minutes, enforcer finds rookie next shift, rookie is leaking blood from numerous orifices, rookie no longer takes liberty with star player)
[/quote:2rffrazw]You can do better than that Vince. Violence in hockey is a cultural component of the sport. There’s nothing inherent in ice hockey which requires violence. You’re using the same argument that was used in rugby 20 years ago when it started to stamp the violence out of the game. Rugby is now a lot less violent than it was when I was young.
Violence appears in hockey for a number of reasons. In the NHL it’s somewhat condoned as a marketing tool, which works well there (violence in hockey doesn’t work well as a marketing tool here). It’s accepted by a decent number of players, coaches, administrators, and officials as being ‘part of the game’. That’s a cultural element that is carried on by the myth of ‘a fight sorting out something’.
The idea that Chris or Mike or whoever else did whatever last night resolving anything clearly isn’t true. The people they were opposed to will play the same next time they step on the ice at this level as they did last night (whether that’s dirty or not). If Hockey_Goon is correct and Rhys stepped up to protect a member of his team, do we think he won’t do that again? No of course he will, Rhys believes in that part of hockey culture.
In rugby league you see lots of violence at one level (State of Origin), much less at another level (NRL, test matches). Again, it’s cultural, there’s an expectation and hype of violence around State of Origin that isn’t around other parts of rugby league.
Violence will lessen in hockey when all aspects of the sport – players, coaches, officials, and administrators decide to make it so. Once administrators across the whole sport make a decision to get rid of it, and direct officials and coaches to do so without exception, it will fade away until it’s relatively rare. Until then it’s a point of conflict as to whether it should be in the sport.
If you want to argue for fighting because you think people should be able to fight as part of hockey, go ahead. If you enjoy that, up to you. If you think it markets the sport, OK, there’s some places in the world where it does. But an argument about it being an essential part of the game for reasons of sorting out other players is deeply flawed.
I was looking down on the game last night and from my perpective and others around me Rhys was being a right pain in the ass to Chris. He knew it too and looked pretty pleased with himself with Chris thrown out of the game and him only sitting in the box, Rhys managed to get Chris to do exactly what he wanted am I right Rhys?. To be a good ref you have to have eyes everywhere and take in huge amounts of information at once and it takes practice and a good ref would have pinged Rhys quite early on last night
Chris- I was appalled to see you not only in one fight but also another one later in the game i thought you may have quit while you were ahed. fighting a 13 year OLD, i find that quite possibly quite disturbing, and as a pose to stepping up and throwing punchs you have resorted to the low level ness of sticking your finger up my nose and eye gouging me, shot bro! you must be a hero cause of that!
hockey goon- i owuld have loved a full out fist fight but it seemed chris wasnt intent on picking my nose and eye gouge me!
” title=”Cheesy” /> Beleive me I wasnt after thatchris i do agreee with you on one thing though, NO WAY were the ref’s to blame for what happened during the game, they did all they could! Keith I take to people taking shots at the refs but not being prepared to do it themselves as kindly as I would to if i saw a man wearing a skirt , not kindly!
If we were to permanently ban people for things as you above mentioned you would like to happen you probably would be one of the first people banned, karate chopping a players head with one a stick of yours in a DIHl a few rounds ago, tryin to beat a 13 year old in a changing room, then assaulting the player who intervened to stop it, id tread carefully, in fact very carefully!
I was dissapointed to see a thunder member like mike who quite often younger players look up to as a role model, to start fighting for no apparent reason at all again against one of our smaller junior players. I think both of you deserved well thought out and executed gestures. Not a good role model at all
"Kyle":lfkmz4nb wrote:"vpatrol":lfkmz4nb wrote:ex. rookie takes run at star player, rookie serves 2 minutes, enforcer finds rookie next shift, rookie is leaking blood from numerous orifices, rookie no longer takes liberty with star player)
[/quote:lfkmz4nb]You can do better than that Vince. Violence in hockey is a cultural component of the sport. There’s nothing inherent in ice hockey which requires violence. You’re using the same argument that was used in rugby 20 years ago when it started to stamp the violence out of the game. Rugby is now a lot less violent than it was when I was young.
Violence appears in hockey for a number of reasons. In the NHL it’s somewhat condoned as a marketing tool, which works well there (violence in hockey doesn’t work well as a marketing tool here). It’s accepted by a decent number of players, coaches, administrators, and officials as being ‘part of the game’. That’s a cultural element that is carried on by the myth of ‘a fight sorting out something’.
The idea that Chris or Mike or whoever else did whatever last night resolving anything clearly isn’t true. The people they were opposed to will play the same next time they step on the ice at this level as they did last night (whether that’s dirty or not). If Hockey_Goon is correct and Rhys stepped up to protect a member of his team, do we think he won’t do that again? No of course he will, Rhys believes in that part of hockey culture.
In rugby league you see lots of violence at one level (State of Origin), much less at another level (NRL, test matches). Again, it’s cultural, there’s an expectation and hype of violence around State of Origin that isn’t around other parts of rugby league.
Violence will lessen in hockey when all aspects of the sport – players, coaches, officials, and administrators decide to make it so. Once administrators across the whole sport make a decision to get rid of it, and direct officials and coaches to do so without exception, it will fade away until it’s relatively rare. Until then it’s a point of conflict as to whether it should be in the sport.
If you want to argue for fighting because you think people should be able to fight as part of hockey, go ahead. If you enjoy that, up to you. If you think it markets the sport, OK, there’s some places in the world where it does. But an argument about it being an essential part of the game for reasons of sorting out other players is deeply flawed.
[/quote:lfkmz4nb]“Violence” as you say or fighting as I say isn’t around because the NHL condones it as a marketing tool. Violence is Donald Brashear getting a stick to the side of his head. Fighting is different in this context. It was around before the NHL knew anything about marketing. Cultural is correct though. Players don’t have Ghandi on the back of their jersey. In a physical game, things can get out of hand and when a person feels threatened, they respond. Players will often moderate the game themselves with fighting. I don’t expect the ref to protect me. I expect him to call penalties after an infraction is caused against me. There’s something to be said by a ref controlling the game but a ref can’t do it all. It only takes one dirty hit in a well reffed game to tip things off.
Apologies if I won’t take “hockey-goons” word for anything since he/she joined immediately after this incident. However if an old guy takes a cheap shot at a young guy, a team mate should step in assuming the young guy can’t protect himself. Chris however doesn’t sound like he wanted anyone else to fight his battles for him.
I think fighting is an inherent part of the game. I didn’t say essential. The game would survive without it if you could change everyones mindset about protecting themselves. Good luck however. It’s not going to happen is my bet.
State of Origin statement is misleading. More is at stake and athletes are willing to do more to achieve victory. Just like in a social game, nobody is going to jam at my hand trying to get to a loose puck. However I expect the Stampede would play with more intensity. When intensity/speed levels go up, margin for error goes up too. A frantic jab for the puck may cause a player to slash across my hand. A melee will ensue. The next time that player thinks about jabbing at my hand, a consequence is known. He may still go after it but others may hesitate who otherwise wouldn’t have if the only consequence is 2 minutes. I support no fighting in social games but when you have competitive players in a contact game, human nature will take over regardless of training. There isn’t a single person I know who supports hits from behind, yet they still happen. You can’t condition that out of the game without slowing it down. Players will cross the line. It’s inevitable. As long as its not “Slapshot” like, a certain amount of fighting is not detracting from the game.
"Rhys M":19c05cka wrote:Chris- I was appalled to see you not only in one fight but also another one later in the game i thought you may have quit while you were ahed. fighting a 13 year OLD,
[/quote:19c05cka]I don’t know the circumstances however there are a lot of 13 year olds who run their mouths at adults assuming their age will protect them. That’s not going to happen always. Perhaps 13 year olds should show a healthy bit of respect in their actions and words. Act like a tough guy and eventually someone is going to call you on it. If you don’t actually want to fight someone, keep your mouth shut and don’t give them any reason to want to fight.
I didn’t see anything last night. Nor the incident in the changing room last night.
All I know is the verbal abuse coming from FYC towards a senior member in the club is appaling, and is nothing short of bullying, deserves a thumping. In saying that you can’t thump anyone these days, and therein lies the problem the kids know there is no consequence to there actions and continually harass this player to breaking point. I was disgusted with what I heard them saying to him. (pretty much along the lines of what vince just said….don’t talk the talk if you can’t walk the walk…)
As far during the game, the FYC are very scrappy team, tripping, elbowing slashing to incite a rise and they generally get it because they are so persistant in their infringements. The Ref needs to stamp that out immediately, or else you get what sounds like happened last night fighting, because the player being offended against, sees that he has to take matters into his own hands.
Oh i hear you say you can tell the ref, but honestly when you are being slashed for the 5th time in a couple of minutes you just lash out…….All I can see is it completely takes away from the game, I don’t even know what the score was?
"Rhys M":3f9sjpoa wrote:Chris- I was appalled to see you not only in one fight but also another one later in the game i thought you may have quit while you were ahed. fighting a 13 year OLD, i find that quite possibly quite disturbing, and as a pose to stepping up and throwing punchs you have resorted to the low level ness of sticking your finger up my nose and eye gouging me, shot bro! you must be a hero cause of that![/quote:3f9sjpoa]
I stopped myself before I gouged you. I did so deliberately, in an effort to gain control over myself. You and I are both fortunate that I did.
Secondly, you and I are both well aware that you very much wanted a fight, but didn’t want to drop your gloves – you wanted me to take a penalty. Fine, whatever. But don’t pretend that immediately before the incident you hadn’t repeatedly rammed your stick into my ribs and then pushed me in the head while we were by the boards. I’m not condoning my reaction, just don’t make out like you were just minding your own business.
Thirdly, I don’t give a shit how lippy 13 year olds get, but when someone punches me in the face (as he did), I’m not going to ask for ID before I retaliate.
Let me just reiterate that I’m not defending or condoning what happened, but I’ll be buggered if I’ll sit here and listen to Rhys pretend that it was the Jets causing the problems in the first place.
"Chris":l3pefz1d wrote:"Rhys M":l3pefz1d wrote:Thirdly, I don’t give a shit how lippy 13 year olds get, but when someone punches me in the face (as he did), I’m not going to ask for ID before I retaliate.[/quote:l3pefz1d][/quote:l3pefz1d]
thats quite funny Chris even if its not really funny (depending on who you talk to)
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