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I knew i had de ja vu
Hi All,
Just to keep you on track.
The proposed structure is on a sand base because of cost. The rinks need to be economical to construct, and also to be relocated – given that no one is willing to “donate” land for these structures (Councils included). If you have to buy land for a rink, the numbers show it is not viable – that is one of the reasons why no one is rushing to build rinks in New Zealand.
New Zealand rinks will operate year round. In Canada, Arenas are used for other things during summer (rodeo, lacrosse, etc.) The business case for a New Zealand rink requires it to operate 365.
Concrete adds another $500,000 plus to the Project, and it is an asset no movable at a later date when the Council or School want their land back.
Secondly, the structures are now used in Canada in several Ice Rink scenarios. A private school on the west of Calgary just installed three structures with three ice sheets. The main building has the ice sheet, and the dressing rooms are actually housed outside the main structure (it helps to manage the internal climate controls better, and has a bearing on the cost of the span of the building).
These structures can be as big as to cater for seating of up to 6,000 people around an Arena. It is easily expandable when required.
The initial investment proposed for the typical Kiwi rink will seat around 400 – 600 people (not much less than Botany is seating at the moment). This will come in at cost of around $5 million for a project (all inclusive, except the land). The drawings on the Blade-Sports site is just an example.
If Wellington wants to see a 6,000 seater capacity with concrete multi purpose floor, you are looking at $20 million plus and is doable.
Thank you for your support.
Hendrik van Wyk
Blade-Sports"Windgat":36l90yl1 wrote:If Wellington wants to see a 6,000 seater capacity with concrete multi purpose floor, you are looking at $20 million plus and is doable.
[/quote:36l90yl1]Wait, I’ve just paid, let me look.
Ah no sorry, I need that bit for my lunch so I’m just short.
20 million…..wait, *drinks coffee*…..*reads again*…*spits coffee everywhere*….
That sounds like an expensive rink.
I am not sure of the cost of the Dunedin Rink. (and granted it was built inside an existing shell). But I don’t think it would come close to that cost (although I could be really wrong)But yeah sounds like a plan. So are you actually building this rink??? Or is this website designed to get me or Kyle to give up our million dollar lunches for a week and give you some money?
Dunedin built its rink, off our own backs, I know a lot of hard work went into to putting it together, and its continual upgrading. So I don’t think we would be able to help you financially. But we wish you all the best.
If you are actually building this rink, when is the projected opening date???
$20 million sounds reasonable for that many people to be honest. The 9000+ John Labatt Centre in London Ont cost well over that mark. Although used for hockey, it is used for much more…successfully too I might add. Just ice hockey specific is a completely unreasonable prospect for the current state of ice hockey in NZ. With that many seats, it needs to be multi-functional. It needs to be a Vector arena type gig where basketball/netball can be played or concerts held. It would be hard to get 6000 people who have heard of hockey into that building. Wellington and Auckland would be the only 2 viable locations for such a building I imagine. 1000 seating is more on the mark I would guess for a stand alone ice hockey venue. I thinking the dominant factor here is will it do the job and will it be as cheap as possible
The Dunedin rink cost less than 10% than that 20 mil. I’m in Montreal now so don’t have the figures with me, but something like 1.2 mil seems to stick in my mind for the basic fitting out within the existing structure (which still needed a lot of expensive work done on it: insulation on the outside, fixed-up roof (both courtesy of our landlord), completely new electrics, fire compliance, plus there was 20k spent as I recall just for removing a huge pesky underground concrete support running across what is now the rink — left over from the original stadium before it was extended some years back). Of course, the rink has been worked on some more since it first opened, with the curling rink added (it has a concrete pad), plus now the mezzanine/closed-in part, and the new and hopefully improved changing rooms. But it still wouldn’t add up to much more than 2.5 mil I think all up.
The land it is on is Crown Reserve land, so it can’t be used for any commercial purpose and is pretty much limited to public recreation.
Someone (can’t remember who) told me about five years ago that the Dunedin Ice Stadium building would cost about $10,000,000 to construct from scratch. Assuming that costs have shot up since then to $14,000,000 then the $20,000,000 quoted above isn’t that much overpriced. The Dunedin Ice Stadium building is quite large though, I suspect nothing of that size would be necessary for a rink based here in NZ, afterall, ours already holds two rinks, a shooting gallery, a bowling green, lots of changing rooms etc.
I have been scratching my head and researched for three years how to build the most economical rink ever (that doesn’t look like a barn!).
Grant Hay actually issued the challenge.All researched and pricing and vendor inputs in New Zealand, Europe and North America brought us down to the design and configuration of around NZ$5 million, which covers a portion of the first year’s operating costs.
There is no cheaper option with the same features (olympic ice, etc) that looks this good. Trust me on it.
I am not the rink salesman. I am the customer for these rinks, so had to be convinced that it can be done.De ja vu: Yes, I have been on a long trek for this objective of more ice surfaces in New Zealand.
Started with synthetic ice. Not real enough, very expensive, only viable for a training surface or school skating pad.Putting ice and boards into existing buildings can be done economically (around NZ$500,000). However, not many buildings cater for the roof span of 30m+ and the insulation requirements. Once you have to make these adjustments you may as well start a new building.
I have worked on importing a floor and boards to be temporarily installed in venues like Vector, Pacific Centre etc. only to come to the rude realization that these locations will not talk to you for less than a cost of around $15,000 a day for their facility.
It typically takes around a week to install the ice and boards, so before we skate our rent will be $100k down already. Vector etc. is also not in the business of standing empty, so the chances of having the floor permanently installed to be used when the Arena is not hosting something else didn’t really appeal either.
Next on the list was to find an economical building concept. Looked at air inflatable buildings, canvas buildings, iron cladded buildings (barn), brick, concrete, etc. All of them have their drawbacks. I can keep you busy for days on this research alone.
Eventually we settled on Tedlar stretched fabric building that is insulated with fiberglass (SPRUNG). Temporary piping on sand (concrete is prohibitively expensive. Boards on a cement curb (have to stay in place for Olympic ice and a Zamboni), and take the punch of 365 days a year. Dressing rooms, cafe, gym, practice facilities, etc. in modular pre-fabricated buildings attached to the main Arena(New Zealand Stanley Group). The refrigeration plant has to be manufactured in New Zealand to comply with regulations and to have someone willing to service it.
Last expensive item is the Zamboni. CAD$80,000 for a new one. CAD55,000+ or refurbished (same supplier that supplied the Dunedin Zamboni).
As you can see from the above – not a trivial endeavor in the least. I’ve probably visited over 60 rinks in Canada alone learning what works and what to avoid.
When will the rinks open?
We are in negotiations with the Councils and investors. I do not have a date yet. I can say that they journey is a lot more complex than initially understood. Any support, even good wishes alone is welcome.
Blade-Sports Academy – plan is to have an international level Ice Hockey Academy for Northern hemisphere off season use in New Zealand.
I have x-NHL coaches committed already, and support from Minor Hockey Association in Canada willing to consider it for their higher level teams (that work in the off season).If we can build stronger interfacing with these high performing Hockey Nations, Have more facilities, then I believe New Zealand will be the pillar in Hockey in the Southern Hemisphere.
Call it delusions of grandeur if you will. I call it an ambitious journey taken one step at a time (ugly website and all).
Your comments and feedback is very much appreciated.
P.S. NZIHF, SPARC is well briefed on all the above
Hendrik
Blade-Sportshello Hendrik
Congragulations on being the fall guy for bashing your head against council brick walls because someone has to do it. I dont envy your job but admire your perseverence and dedication.
As someone who was heavily involved in the design and bureaucracy of establishing the Dunedin Ice rink I am mystified at the 500k extra price tag of a concrete rink. In Dunedin The hockey rink is in sand and the curling rink is in concrete. For the curling rink the costs were quite similar for a sand or concrete base. Sand is cheaper but the labour costs were cut down dramaticly for concrete. I know in Wellington you have a much greater distance to transport concrete but wouldnt the same be for sand?. I realise there are other parameters dictating your type of rink base used but I would suggest that you may be off the mark in that particular costingHendrik,
Your efforts are appreciated, more so if this comes to fruition. The only trepidation is the appearance of lack on consultation with the primary users. The actual needs of the users may differ than what you assume them to be. If you have had extensive consultation with the NZIHL, NZIHF, and other relevant bodies, I apologise. It seems what you are looking for is community supoprt/patronage. With such a small community in NZ, the ice hockey folks would need to be part of the process before they can call it their own. Although I was not part of the process in Dunedin, the hockey community rallies around that arena and is quite proud of it because of the input they had in its development. Retrofitting is almost impossible as you say simply because the suitable buildings are few and far between. I think with consultation, you will find some willing people to do some of the leg work and eventually come up with a product suitable to the eventual users. My two cents.
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