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players are growing faster then the refs are, agreed. I just don’t think we can go and buy new refs unless you know someone who can become our wealthy benefactor. As long as positive steps can be taken soon, I would be happy with that.
Why blame the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff? I’m sure we have all seen the same players do the same dumb shit week in, week out and they still haven’t learnt yet? Player education needs to be addressed as well.
Some of the refs that have been slagged off have been to up to 7 IIHF tournaments and they have all got very good reports, clearly the local instructors are doing something right, despite your misguided opinions! You don’t get invited back if you not up to it!
The level to which a Referee could exercise his discretion was removed with implementation of the IIHF standard of play a number of years ago.
The reffing needs to improve. There is no getting away from that. There are players who will eventually be weeded out from the league for doing the dumb stuff you mention. The two are unrelated though. I’m not saying throw the baby out with the bath water but things need to change. Kiwi players rely on imports to up their game and push the level up a notch that otherwise would be difficult to attain. The same can be said for refs. Peter came back from Finland a better referee. Utilizing the skills of overseas refs can only help our own. There needs to be some improvement in all facets of the game and that includes the refs.
It’s the same argument for players, coaches and refs, it would be great to go overseas to get more experience but who is going to pay for it?
Overseas, not only would the Refs get exposed to a much better level of play and coaching, but so would the players and coaches too, and so the story goes on!
The sport has yet to reach a critical mass before we gain any improvement in a number of areas, including referreeing, but with a declining player base we should be concerned with all facets of our game. The country requires to have an addition of at least four more arenas in other city’s before we get any significant progress.
We are on the right path, but if we removed the current topics of conversation, would the viewers be happy with their local guys calling these games and watching the ‘bird’ fly out of the building? I’m sure Kelf would be first to put his hand up to do so!
we can list all the shortcomings of players and coaches and marketing but it doesn’t detract from refs also being an area of concern.
Plod, do you think the refs are perfect and have no need for improvement and wouldn’t benefit from an overseas ref (who has shown demonstratable talent and experience) coming to NZ?
I’m not saying the refs are crap. The league collapses without refs. I don’t call you guys crap on the ice and I am not ripping you off the ice either. I’m saying that the pace of improvement doesn’t seem to be matching the improvement of the play. I saw the league firsthand in 2005 and the level of play is lightyears ahead. I’m not sure the refs have kept up at the same level. I guess I’m saying the haven’t. Bearing in mind that all refs have day jobs here unlike pro refs overseas, something different needs to be injected into the education program.
The players rely on overseas help for the simple reason that overseas talent is better. I can’t see anything but upside for everyone by applying the same theory to refs, money issue aside of course.
I, like most other people, would love to go overseas and Ref, play etc but have other committments to met. The main issue is when you return, you will see people drop/return to the local level of play. That overseas hotshot doesn’t seem to even bother towards the end of the season because there little pressure to perform/keep their position in the team with the exception of maybe, Polozov.
I would accept that there have been some incidents recently which could have been handled better by the on-ice officials but until they encounter them, they won’t know their limitations and won’t learn from them. It is a problem that without a good contact league in town, and I know we have discussed this previously at the rink, because it does no-one any favors, refs included.
A lot of people/critics are probably not aware that the officials are peer assessed in Chch and Auck during the Nat Leag, JEL and at Nationals. Being human, there are areas to improve on and we use it often to improve our game We don’t go out to ruin a game the despite what some say, everyone is entitled to their opinion and we would welcome more people to come out and give it a craic!
It is very easy to discuss these situations in a classroom but until they experience it they won’t really know.
with all the limitations surrounding the league, its’ players, coaches, refs etc, I think it is a requirement to support the refs by bringing in someone who has performed the job at a much higher level then the current crop of peer assessors. All areas of the nzihl need to be addressed and can be improved on.
Plod why are you scared for International ref’s coming in?
I appreicate the job you guys do as referees and as you say you are only human and we all
know that humans make mistakes. but the standard needs to lift.
If that means the NZIHL or the NZIHF need to throw some cash at the issue I say money well spent.
As with stating the there is a declining player base, this could be caused by them becoming frustrated at current state of the officiating at the top level of NZ hockey.Polovu? is he the one who is in the country without a current permit?
Think that there are well founded reasons why people leave sports and hockey is no exception, especially at the 17-20 year old players. There are a number of surveys completed and I think that you find that the level of officiating would be well down the list of reasons why they leave the sport.
You would find that sex, booze/drugs, work, study, money (parents not paying) are at the top of those list.
I’m not against international refs coming but am curious to why we would need to do go the expense, we should ask the IIHF to supply mentors/instructors to run courses. there are a number of options available.
If you look at recent ‘professional’ coaches who have worked in the country, I would question how much they actually improved the game? Similar argument for a Ref instructor, it would be better to identify a suitable candidate and send them to an overseas school/camp etc for about 6 months.
Can’t really comment on Polozov’s immigration status, news to me but that would be between him and the Immigration Department.
I think you could have a similar discussion about officials in the western island too!
vp, kelf, give it up – the refs here will never change their attitude. I’ve never met a group of individuals who exhibit such a breathtaking level of arrogance and inability to admit that they may be less than perfect – all you’ll hear is a list of reasons why its the players/coaches fault and never theirs. I’ve dealt with many Import players in recent years, and they all tell me the same story – NZ refs are very poor compared to what they’re used to overseas. I could live with the local refs reflecting the local players and NZ’s place in the world rankings, but what I can’t live with or understand is how they seem to THINK that they’re so damn good when they clearly aren’t. Some humility or pride-swallowing would go a long way. However they’re taught to never change their mind on a call, and they extend that to mean that they should never admit when they’re wrong – the two are subtly different. When the day comes when refs can TRULY admit that they need to take steps to improve, then there is hope for us all. Until then, we’re all wasting our breath. Just wait for Plod to prove my point….
We only need 2 International Ref’s for our season as there are only 4 teams playing each weekend, that would mean 1 for each game.
If we are to send ref’s over seas for training then we would need to send 2, whereas if we bring ref’s in they can coach and do clinic etc while they are here to all who want to up their game.Im not talking about coaches, but if we get referees through the IIHF and their ranking was good then we should be right.
Disagree with the coaches, maybe we have been lucky down here in Queenstown all the import coaches we have had have worked bloody hard, with not only the Stampede but also all grades of the game.
In thinking about it all our Head Coaches have been Kiwi’sJust think it needs to be discussed at the top level of the game before we start losing more players due to frustration.
"vpatrol":3m5792nl wrote:The reffing needs to improve. There is no getting away from that. There are players who will eventually be weeded out from the league for doing the dumb stuff you mention.
[/quote:3m5792nl]Sorry when will that be happening? I’ve been waiting a couple of years, are further directions needed? Teams still seem to be selecting those players.
If players, coaches, and supporters of the league want better officials, they probably need to cough up about $10K/season. Half to go towards bringing all NZIHL officials together in north and south island training weekends, which would do fitness, rule testing, cover the material at the TRIM meeting, and probably run officials through games using premier league teams. There are close to 25 officials who do national league games across the country and attendance should be compulsory to get games in the upcoming season.
The other half to fly in senior referees for each round to act as supervisors. We’ve started doing this with some rounds, but it’s somewhat haphazard, and it’s not always a senior official doing it. There’s limited training that can be done with officials without seeing them do actual games, in much the way that you learn a lot about players and coaches when they actually play.
You need to remember that the training that your national league official might have had might be as little as 12 hours. They might have had some supervision for a few games after that. Compared to players who might have had over a thousand hours of training on and off the ice, constantly supervised by coaches. The commitment carries through to the NZIHF, who until recently employed a Coaching Coordinator, who provided good services to clubs and coaches. The referee coordinator is an unpaid volunteer with limited resources or budget.
If you take southern officials who are stepping forward and trying to cover local games – we don’t have any local contact leagues to build up our skills, and even if we make one – as Dunedin has – there’s no senior official to supervise us and help us improve.
Like Paul, I find player knowledge and attitude pretty frustrating. I’ll happily accept that I’m an average official at best. But I get really sick of players yelling at me, particularly when they’re yelling at me to make a call that I just made, yelling at me because they don’t know the rules, or yelling at me because they’re not winning. If I’m going to devote 4 hours of my weekend to helping an ice hockey game happen, for $20-$30, it’d be good if players wouldn’t do that. I’ll happily keep on working to become a better official if they try and work on being less of a dickhead.
There’s going to be progress with officials over the next couple of years, as we have a new referee-in-chief and he’s not afraid to say it when his officials aren’t doing things right, and what they need to do to get better, and to admit that to teams. I saw that a couple of times over the weekend.
I think you should have read a couple of posts previously! I conceded that there are times when a better job could have been done, but someone has to play the devils advocate and once again, you are welcome to come out and give it a go before putting your penny in.
Ironically, this type of argument also occurs in the highest level of competition and in every sport too! Check it out in the International Hockey Gang forum, i’m sure that either of you could find it.
I’m really not too concerned what a couple of arm chair referees say, I am more concerned with what my peers do say.
Both coaches spoke freely with the referees after the games over the weekend and only questioned a minor offside situation, which as Kyle said earlier was called correctly.
Sadly Plod, this Armchair Referee pays to come and see these games, and which if we as the armchair referee’s stop coming to the games then i believe then there will be no more NZIHL as sadly it doesn’t pay for itself.
Kyle, I agree that the 10K would be well spent, that to me as is not an expense it is an investment in New Zealand Ice Hockey as a whole. Maybe the NZIHF need to front with this cash. or look for a sponsor for the referee’s, sponsors logo on the tops, would be good to see a bit more colour on their shirts than red & black!
Seems crazy to me that this is such a problem, I am trying to get some discussion started to help the officials and find way to do this?
If we need to raise funds to do this, let me know how much and I am happy to try and source this if the NZIHL or the NZIHF are unable to come to the party
I’ve mostly stayed off this thread, as my general understanding of hockey is mediocre at best, but I’ll throw my two cents in.
I’ve just started refereeing local games, and I’m blown away by how difficult it can be. I was unable to attend the recent referees workshop due to a prior commitment, but I’m keen to improve my skills. I find refereeing enjoyable, and it’s nice to give back to my club and the sport in general. Plus, of course, the power… oh, lord, the POWER!!1!
Ahem. Anyway, it seems like there’s general agreement that the refereeing isn’t perfect, there’s just a dispute as to the extent of the discrepancy between player skill growth and referee skill growth, as well as the cure for the problem.
With this comment we are finally getting somewhere:
"kelf6966":3f9utgmm wrote:If we need to raise funds to do this, let me know how much and I am happy to try and source this if the NZIHL or the NZIHF are unable to come to the party
[/quote:3f9utgmm]Like Kelf, I think Kyle’s idea is a good one. Kyle seems to have his finger pretty well on the pulse on these kinds of issues, so let’s say this $10k figure is about right. Kelf’s put his hand up and said that he’s willing to try and do something about the situation, in the form of looking into some fundraising options.
$10k is a concrete goal – one that could be achieved if the wider hockey community and regional clubs got behind it, as well as any ideas that kelf may have.
Even if this isn’t “the answer”, surely it’s a pretty good step in the right direction?
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