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well if only the opinion of your peers matters, let’s find you a peer who knows more then us dumbshit armchair players.
The coaches also had conversations that were less then glowing about the state of officiating.
Not sure why such resistence to an idea of getting better. If someone offered me access to an nhl goalie coach because they thought I was in need of improvement, I wouldn’t say, “screw that, I’m a perfectly average goalie for the nzihl and don’t need to rock the boat. I make some good saves and some bad ones from time to time”. I think my response would be be a more profane version of “yippee yippee”
I wouldn’t make an excuse that the players need to get better first before I let someone try and make me better.
teams aren’t selecting those players in abundance anymore Kyle (less and less as the basement player is better every year) and frankly it doesn’t matter if the players don’t know the rules. Deserved penalties aren’t the issue. It a player is stupid enough to get penalties for something he thinks is legal, shame on him.
"kelf6966":297k0rg9 wrote:Kyle, I agree that the 10K would be well spent, that to me as is not an expense it is an investment in New Zealand Ice Hockey as a whole. Maybe the NZIHF need to front with this cash. or look for a sponsor for the referee’s, sponsors logo on the tops, would be good to see a bit more colour on their shirts than red & black!
[/quote:297k0rg9]Talk to Peter Haxell. He’s already working on a number of these issues, and anyone who could help find money to make it easier I think he’d be all over.
"vpatrol":27tgmgu2 wrote:teams aren’t selecting those players in abundance anymore Kyle
[/quote:27tgmgu2]Oh c’mon. Wasn’t there a fight during the handshake between Thunder and Red Devils? Who the hell fights during the handshake? Two players who have represented their country. Classy.
"vpatrol":27tgmgu2 wrote:frankly it doesn’t matter if the players don’t know the rules. Deserved penalties aren’t the issue. It a player is stupid enough to get penalties for something he thinks is legal, shame on him.
[/quote:27tgmgu2]It really does Vince. Watch the difference if a player takes a call and A. bitches and protests, or B. Heads to the box and takes their punishment. The crowd can’t see half the penalties that happen on the ice, and NZ ice hockey crowds aren’t very hockey knowledgeable. You’ve got administrators on the side of the ice abusing referees for making a bad call when the referee made a good call. It’s not unreasonable for the crowd to think that the players, coaches, administrators etc know the game, and therefore the referee did make a bad call.
But c’mon, it’s not a handpass if it starts and finishes in the defensive zone. It’s a hook when your stick gets parallel to the ice and impedes the opponent. These are not difficult calls that the referees made – obvious as anything from the side of the rink where I was standing. Why were people who should know better abusing a referee for making correct calls? I had to ask one fan on the Friday night to stop swearing at the referee because I’d brought my family along to watch, and he was spouting rubbish to an underpaid official who was donating his weekend to support the NZIHL in Southern because we don’t have any referees down here. Clearly a fan of Stampede hockey too. How does that encourage other officials or progress the game?
[s:25epplcy]If $10,000 only pays for referees for the upper levels, then I'd say that is a bit too expensive to be considered an option (in the absence of someone willing to cough it up out of their back pocket). However if that $10,000 can include extensive training for the local referees, then it sounds like a step in the right direction IMO.
That way you get pro level refereeing for the NZIHL and consistent training for local referees. To my mind, the consistent training for local referees is far more important than providing refs for the NZHIL. Building for the future is paramount IMO.
Another use of $10,000 would be to use it for building up a larger pool of referees. I'm not sure how you would do that, but if the money could be used in a productive way to dredge up more referees, then the trickle down effect of having more of them, will in turn result in a better quality of referee. Plus it has the immediate benefit of easing the load on the existing referees.[/s:25epplcy]
Scratch that. I misread everything and assumed the $10,000 was for bringing in temporary pro referees to do the NZIHL It seems that $10,000 figure was for exactly what I was suggesting.
we aren’t talking about crowd perception here. People who don’t have a clue about the game can bitch and moan if it feels it supports their team. I don’t care about them. Those who know the game (and there are a lot who play nzihl) appreciate a well called game. We expect the refs to do the job at the best of their ability and to strive to be better. Players bitching and moaning happens in the NHL even. You can’t use that as an excuse.
Were you there for the fight? I have no problem with what Jacques did. He would have happily shook hands and left the ice if the other party had the same intentions. The Olympic hockey final would have had a fight in the handshake if a goalie was under threat after the game was over. Was it ridiculous, yes but once it was instigated, what happened after was guaranteed.
Would you complain if we had a pro coach come here and run courses? What about a pro player come and teach technical skills to the IB’s? Why is that ok but a huge uproar when its suggested the refs would benefit from the same treatment. There is honestly some serious pride and stubborness issues going on here to reject any notion of needing to improve along with the rest of us.
"vpatrol":1aory0nu wrote:Were you there for the fight? I have no problem with what Jacques did. He would have happily shook hands and left the ice if the other party had the same intentions. The Olympic hockey final would have had a fight in the handshake if a goalie was under threat after the game was over. Was it ridiculous, yes but once it was instigated, what happened after was guaranteed.
[/quote:1aory0nu]I think maybe there are more appropriate responses, then hitting someone in the face with your helmet, and then pounding their head into the ice repeatedly using their dreadlocks.
Some sort of scuffle was to be expected, but probably toned down a notch….
I would hazard a guess that the ones taking shots at the refs dont actually do much if any reffing. I ref and I know how easy it is to make a cock up no matter how prepared you are. You learn and move on knowing what to do next time but the last thing I would do is critisize another refs decision making. If I were to make an observation it would be about the amount of time some refs take to make a decision while play is stopped. It is a big learning curve which only experience can teach
"vpatrol":1fwbnqcv wrote:Were you there for the fight? I have no problem with what Jacques did. He would have happily shook hands and left the ice if the other party had the same intentions. The Olympic hockey final would have had a fight in the handshake if a goalie was under threat after the game was over. Was it ridiculous, yes but once it was instigated, what happened after was guaranteed.
[/quote:1fwbnqcv]You made the point that the stupid players had been weeded out of the game, just pointing out that there’s still a bunch of them there – since you clearly think that one of the players did something stupid.
"vpatrol":3tiw5nfl wrote:we aren’t talking about crowd perception here. People who don’t have a clue about the game can bitch and moan if it feels it supports their team. I don’t care about them. Those who know the game (and there are a lot who play nzihl) appreciate a well called game. We expect the refs to do the job at the best of their ability and to strive to be better. Players bitching and moaning happens in the NHL even. You can’t use that as an excuse.
[/quote:3tiw5nfl]First off, every NZIHL officiating changing room I’ve ever been in – which is about 15 or so times now all the officials have been striving to do better. Sometimes they don’t have the information or perspective to get better, but normally after each period there’s a discussion between the officials about what needs to be better next period. It’s more difficult for the referees as they often don’t have anyone to point out what they’re doing wrong, whereas us linesmen typically have a referee telling us how we’re not helping them. Maybe it’s different up in Canterbury or Auckland, but I doubt it.
Secondly, I’m not using players bitching as an excuse – or if I have, please point it out. I’m saying, if there are players and coaches and other people who think officials have had a bad game, and those players and coaches are flat our wrong, then the officials really don’t have a case to answer. It’s a waste of time trying to get better to satisfy someone who doesn’t know the rules and procedures, and who is trying to get you to make bad calls. We have to strive to get better, not to make uninformed people happier.
Yes officials have good and bad games, and some officials are definitely better than others. No secret there. We’ve had some discussion here about ways that they can get better, and I know that some of them are being worked on. But it’s a long term project, and if you’re concerned about NZIHL referees – it takes years for a new official to reach that level, and it requires structures and money to help the existing ones get better.
Some people are of the opinion that officials are the worst thing in the league, personally I think it’s player attitudes to officials. It won’t be long before we have some officials choose to give up the game because they’re sick of the abuse. The money is crap as well. It’s not just the NZIHL either, a NZJEL coach’s behaviour that I saw after they lost a game – appalling that that person is paid to coach youth hockey.
"vpatrol":1hjvp8vj wrote:Would you complain if we had a pro coach come here and run courses? What about a pro player come and teach technical skills to the IB’s? Why is that ok but a huge uproar when its suggested the refs would benefit from the same treatment. There is honestly some serious pride and stubborness issues going on here to reject any notion of needing to improve along with the rest of us.
[/quote:1hjvp8vj]I’d be very happy for a pro referee coach to come to NZ and help us out. But I think we can get the same resource here in NZ permanently if we send a promising young official overseas for half a year to work in Europe or something. Peter Haxell did this on a Prime Minister’s scholarship and worked in the Finnish Div 2 league.
Import coaches are only here to help us for a few months. A domestic coach who we train to the same level could help us for 10 years.
Clearly Kyle, that person yelling at the ref’s was me
Clearly your family is quite small
Clearly Tripping is not when a player stands on the opponents stick and asses over on his way off the bench is it? – If you believe what we all saw on Saturday then oh yes it is.Clearly I don’t ref, why would I with all those hostile Southern Stampede supporters yelling at me!
I say it again, all I was suggesting is that we assist the local officials by supporting them with International Officials to train and support them though the NZIHL season, this of couse can include NZJEL if it means more time on the Ice for the Officials.
We have allowed import players in the league – which yes can assist or hinder a team depending on the import player. We have been lucky so far with our importsWe allow import coaches – once again sometimes their experience is great, sometimes it can do more harm than good – Thunder will atest to this
As for the Officials being lowly paid, well their are a few people around the NZIHL who do a hell of alot more work to get the NZIHL happening during the season that have yet to be paid, purely for the love of the game and to see the league succeed!
"kelf6966":d1qwkh4i wrote:Clearly Kyle, that person yelling at the ref’s was me
Clearly your family is quite small
Clearly Tripping is not when a player stands on the opponents stick and asses over on his way off the bench is it? – If you believe what we all saw on Saturday then oh yes it is.
[/quote:d1qwkh4i]1. OK, classy.
2. He’s not very small, but he’s only 13. And he’s a new official who was doing the training that weekend, and watching people abuse the referee who is going to be running the training isn’t really going to encourage him, or others. Also I found it offensive personally. There’s reasonable things to call out to a referee, and then there’s just yelling abuse. I assume Stampede want people to be able to bring their kids to the game and not witness that sort of behaviour.
3. It wasn’t a tripping call, it was a hooking call. It was a fairly standard hook – stick across the Swarm player’s chest preventing them from driving to the net. Why it was cause to call out “shit call”, and “arsehole” to the referee, I have no idea, but there was nothing wrong with the call.I won’t dispute that there’s a lot of people around who do more work for the NZIHL and don’t get paid. I do more work off-ice for NZIHL then I do on-ice each season. I don’t think that changes the fact that officials are underpaid in the NZIHL, NZJEL, and at nationals, particularly if you want to reserve the right to hurl abuse at them when you disagree with them. I generally don’t expect to be paid for the work I do for Southern or Dunedin – and I’m not – but officials should be paid and should be paid more than they’re getting at the moment.
"Kyle":1em22m3w wrote:"vpatrol":1em22m3w wrote:Were you there for the fight? I have no problem with what Jacques did. He would have happily shook hands and left the ice if the other party had the same intentions. The Olympic hockey final would have had a fight in the handshake if a goalie was under threat after the game was over. Was it ridiculous, yes but once it was instigated, what happened after was guaranteed.
[/quote:1em22m3w]You made the point that the stupid players had been weeded out of the game, just pointing out that there’s still a bunch of them there – since you clearly think that one of the players did something stupid.
[/quote:1em22m3w]I said being weeded out. I didn’t say they were all gone.
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