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vpatrolMember"Hockey_Goon":3uzgcd7z wrote:Kyle how do you know Fighting wouldn’t work as a marketing tool?
Im sure if fighting was allowed Hockey in New Zealand would get a much greater fanbase. Lets face it every one loves fighting there are those who love to watch it for the thrill of it and others want to see it just so they can protest against it.
And from a players stand point they are all going to want fighting in the game stars players have protection from cheapshots and the enforcers take pride in there job to protect them.
Lets be honest the Oilers never would have won there 4 Stanley Cups if it wasn’t for McSorley protecting gretzky the whole time.
[/quote:3uzgcd7z]Dave Semenko was his body guard during the 1984 Cup win. No McSorley until 1985. ” title=”Wink” />
vpatrolMemberI think he stole that from me
"Active":2z8tn6xt wrote:"Chris":2z8tn6xt wrote:"Rhys M":2z8tn6xt wrote:Thirdly, I don’t give a shit how lippy 13 year olds get, but when someone punches me in the face (as he did), I’m not going to ask for ID before I retaliate.
[/quote:2z8tn6xt]
thats quite funny Chris even if its not really funny (depending on who you talk to)
[/quote:2z8tn6xt][/quote:2z8tn6xt]vpatrolMember"Rhys M":19c05cka wrote:Chris- I was appalled to see you not only in one fight but also another one later in the game i thought you may have quit while you were ahed. fighting a 13 year OLD,
[/quote:19c05cka]I don’t know the circumstances however there are a lot of 13 year olds who run their mouths at adults assuming their age will protect them. That’s not going to happen always. Perhaps 13 year olds should show a healthy bit of respect in their actions and words. Act like a tough guy and eventually someone is going to call you on it. If you don’t actually want to fight someone, keep your mouth shut and don’t give them any reason to want to fight.
vpatrolMember"Kyle":lfkmz4nb wrote:"vpatrol":lfkmz4nb wrote:ex. rookie takes run at star player, rookie serves 2 minutes, enforcer finds rookie next shift, rookie is leaking blood from numerous orifices, rookie no longer takes liberty with star player)
[/quote:lfkmz4nb]You can do better than that Vince. Violence in hockey is a cultural component of the sport. There’s nothing inherent in ice hockey which requires violence. You’re using the same argument that was used in rugby 20 years ago when it started to stamp the violence out of the game. Rugby is now a lot less violent than it was when I was young.
Violence appears in hockey for a number of reasons. In the NHL it’s somewhat condoned as a marketing tool, which works well there (violence in hockey doesn’t work well as a marketing tool here). It’s accepted by a decent number of players, coaches, administrators, and officials as being ‘part of the game’. That’s a cultural element that is carried on by the myth of ‘a fight sorting out something’.
The idea that Chris or Mike or whoever else did whatever last night resolving anything clearly isn’t true. The people they were opposed to will play the same next time they step on the ice at this level as they did last night (whether that’s dirty or not). If Hockey_Goon is correct and Rhys stepped up to protect a member of his team, do we think he won’t do that again? No of course he will, Rhys believes in that part of hockey culture.
In rugby league you see lots of violence at one level (State of Origin), much less at another level (NRL, test matches). Again, it’s cultural, there’s an expectation and hype of violence around State of Origin that isn’t around other parts of rugby league.
Violence will lessen in hockey when all aspects of the sport – players, coaches, officials, and administrators decide to make it so. Once administrators across the whole sport make a decision to get rid of it, and direct officials and coaches to do so without exception, it will fade away until it’s relatively rare. Until then it’s a point of conflict as to whether it should be in the sport.
If you want to argue for fighting because you think people should be able to fight as part of hockey, go ahead. If you enjoy that, up to you. If you think it markets the sport, OK, there’s some places in the world where it does. But an argument about it being an essential part of the game for reasons of sorting out other players is deeply flawed.
[/quote:lfkmz4nb]“Violence” as you say or fighting as I say isn’t around because the NHL condones it as a marketing tool. Violence is Donald Brashear getting a stick to the side of his head. Fighting is different in this context. It was around before the NHL knew anything about marketing. Cultural is correct though. Players don’t have Ghandi on the back of their jersey. In a physical game, things can get out of hand and when a person feels threatened, they respond. Players will often moderate the game themselves with fighting. I don’t expect the ref to protect me. I expect him to call penalties after an infraction is caused against me. There’s something to be said by a ref controlling the game but a ref can’t do it all. It only takes one dirty hit in a well reffed game to tip things off.
Apologies if I won’t take “hockey-goons” word for anything since he/she joined immediately after this incident. However if an old guy takes a cheap shot at a young guy, a team mate should step in assuming the young guy can’t protect himself. Chris however doesn’t sound like he wanted anyone else to fight his battles for him.
I think fighting is an inherent part of the game. I didn’t say essential. The game would survive without it if you could change everyones mindset about protecting themselves. Good luck however. It’s not going to happen is my bet.
State of Origin statement is misleading. More is at stake and athletes are willing to do more to achieve victory. Just like in a social game, nobody is going to jam at my hand trying to get to a loose puck. However I expect the Stampede would play with more intensity. When intensity/speed levels go up, margin for error goes up too. A frantic jab for the puck may cause a player to slash across my hand. A melee will ensue. The next time that player thinks about jabbing at my hand, a consequence is known. He may still go after it but others may hesitate who otherwise wouldn’t have if the only consequence is 2 minutes. I support no fighting in social games but when you have competitive players in a contact game, human nature will take over regardless of training. There isn’t a single person I know who supports hits from behind, yet they still happen. You can’t condition that out of the game without slowing it down. Players will cross the line. It’s inevitable. As long as its not “Slapshot” like, a certain amount of fighting is not detracting from the game.
vpatrolMembernot really my point. I don’t know the specific circumstances of this incident however knowing some of the past infractions I was inferring something else. What I am trying to say is that you have a core group of players who are often seen as trouble makers. Until now they either don’t get penalized or maybe they do. However it doesn’t deter them from the dirty behavior on ice (again not referring to a specific incident). If I am constantly slashed (for example), at some point I would stop being content with the person being penalized and would retaliate physically. The ref could be doing a fantastic job of calling penalties but some people don’t care about serving two minutes. They like slashing and playing dirty. That person gets a beating for their troubles and the behavior miraculously becomes less frequent in many cases.
ex. rookie takes run at star player, rookie serves 2 minutes, enforcer finds rookie next shift, rookie is leaking blood from numerous orifices, rookie no longer takes liberty with star player)
vpatrolMemberslash a guy in the face, you get a warning if its accidental and probably some choice language. Slash a guy in the face as part of continued dirty play, prepare to fight. The best refs in the world can’t stop that happening nor should they. No idea what happened but if a “young guy” does something stupid, history supports the “old guy” preventing him from doing it again. That’s proper hockey.
vpatrolMemberBlame the refs. That will solve all problems. We all know they are supposed to act like the parents to all the players to ensure they play nice.
vpatrolMemberAlso looks like Kane Easterbrook is playing for the Toronto Moose in the GMHL. Played 2 games so far.
vpatrolMemberis brett back from last year?
vpatrolMemberThey do have quite a few. They have some strong individuals.
vpatrolMember"Rhys M":2nw12ids wrote:I also think your being fairly unrealistic in thinking people will follow this, i can think of certain games where these guideline wont be followed at all, because the people dont care
[/quote:2nw12ids]Not following because not caring (or any other reason for that matter) offers DIHA the option of removing the offending person from DIHA sanctioned events depending on the nature of the infraction. That’s pretty much like any club/team with any sort of constitution.
vpatrolMemberThe parent behavior thing should be added I think. I haven’t actually seen too many abusive parents in NZ but its a big problem overseas in the bigger hockey communities. Parents actually killing other parents and death threats towards refs. (one idiot parent threatened a ref with death. The ref happened to be an off duty cop so during intermission, he called his buddies and had him arrested. It was classic)
Abusive parents put undue stress on the kid and it also affects other parents. I wouldn’t accept an abusive parent if I was coaching nor would I expect other parents to want to take their kids to a rink knowing they will be exposed to that! You lose many players if one abusive or loud mouth parent isn’t dealt with appropriately. Again, haven’t seen it here but might as well get a jump on it so the rule’s in place.
vpatrolMember3. Learn the rules and strategies of ice hockey to increase their understanding of the game
this one I think does have a place with minors but not seniors. I think it should be reworded though to refer more to a willingness to listen to the coaches and general respect for the coaches
vpatrolMember1. Play hockey for a love of the game above all other things.
this one sounds odd. how about playing the game in the spirit of of good sportsmanship? The warm fuzzy feelings are personal to each player and can’t be dictated!(I’m coming to the discussion late so I might be repeating arguments already)
vpatrolMemberThe under 20 roster is pretty impressive.
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